https://docs.google.com/document/d/12Dmg0JtwyWabz39DvoIiPD2qYxj39hwu1Um4RfDyEok/edit
Define Relapse
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jump in um just to make sure that we’re like setting the stage right how would we Define relapse let’s be really clear
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on what it is well the first thing I think of is three circles right is that inner circle however as I had this
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discussion with John we were talking about it uh I think that Circle expands as you uh progress in your sobriety so
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what might have been a relapse for me uh what what might have been a victory for me in year one is now part of my relapse
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Circle you know so um because you’re talking about the three circles tool yeah from our recovery resources and
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that the middle circle is identifying what relapse is yeah free tool on our website download it now yeah plug plug
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plug yeah yeah so it’s because we had this discussion uh it was actually quite
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good of what is lapse relapse right and so we just had a great conversation um
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so initially I would say it’s that that behavior in the Inner Circle that you say you don’t want to engage in that
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that’s where your boundaries are yeah yeah and when you say something that used to be a victory you would now think of as a relapse do you mean like the
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person who says well I you know I only went this far to that provocative site but I didn’t go all the way into
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pornography like I did in the past and so initially like hey that’s progress but now it’s like hey that even that
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initial step I think of as a relapse because I have defined that for me it’s somewhere I don’t want to go anymore is
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that kind of what you’re hitting at exactly yeah yeah I I think it’s using the definition of you know from the
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faster scale of returning to places that I’ve promised God myself or others I won’t go back to and that that could be
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you know the obvious things like pornography and masturbation obviously physical Affairs um but but there are
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many many other things that someone has identified as part of their destruction pattern and they’ve realized even over
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time that the more I grow in health the more clear I am that these are just not practices I can engage in in a healthy
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way and and so for us then that can become a relapse and I think it does underscore two especially as we move
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into healing you know initially the thought of relapse is so maybe frightening if we’re on the verge of
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losing our marriage it’s so embarrassing like we’re we’re we’re attacking our recovery with this intensity that it’s
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like I don’t I don’t ever want to relapse because all the fear associated with it but I think there is something
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over time not to ever say like relapse becomes okay but if we are defining relapse differently as just anything
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that’s part of that pattern we might see that I I need those things as reminders
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I need them to be in that middle circle so I don’t downplay them and I’m not so much afraid of of relapse itself for
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what will happen I’m just afraid of reverting to my old unhealthy pattern right so I know like a small distinction
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because I think initially just like avoid this Behavior avoid going to that one place and really it’s like no what I want to avoid moving away from health
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and so I need to maybe add to what a relapse is so that I’m taking steps towards health and Recovery long before
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I do go to some of those old unhealthy places yeah because what comes to mind to when you asking this question and
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even what you guys have already said it’s like if someone who has a drug addiction or someone who is addicted to alcohol a relapse isn’t just a onetime
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thing it ends up you go on this Bender where it’s a extend Ed thing and you’re now living the same way that you used to
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before you started your recovery process and so I think that that’s what it is is we already have these neuro Pathways in our brain and so it’s like lighting
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those up again and our brain just goes on to cruise control and we may get to the point where you know one relapse
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really means like three or four weeks of behavior of stuff that we’ve been trying to stop doing so I think that that’s
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what you’re talking about is that it can really set you up for getting back into that old lifestyle you’ve been working
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really hard to get out of it’s really interesting you you brought that up because I was talking to John and I said I view a relapse kind of like I’m in a
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relay race and I fall down I immediately brush myself off I get up and I continue
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running um or that would be a lapse I would say a relapse would be I fall down
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I see a doughnut shop off to the side of the road I wander off to the doughnut shop buy a dozen donuts go into the alley and eat them and someone has to
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come grab me and go you got to get back in the race you’re still in the race dude yeah it’s a very specific example
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done that before yesterday I’m not sure yeah so let’s talk about you know in
Plan To Prevent Relapse
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recovery what are the some of the tools or elements of an effective uh plan that we would encourage someone to put in
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place for preventing relapse yeah so you know as you think about preventing a relapse prevention plan or something
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along those lines the first thing I thought of is that awareness um that initially takes place when you come into
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a group uh breaking that denial that I am an addict I remember that first group
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going I do not want to say I’m an addict I just want to say I have a problem and
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if I can quit looking at pornography in two or three weeks I’m going to be good um so I think you know part of the
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process is becoming aware that I am an addict identifying my triggers understanding my woundedness my trauma
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learning about the nature of addiction uh recognizing the warning signs of Cravings that leave to behavior the
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effect on me my personal health and the harm that I’m causing to those around me as I was thinking about this I thought
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about those three questions that you ask how long have you been doing this uh have you you tried to quit and who is it
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hurting you know and I think that’s one of those things as we believe or I believed I’m not hurting anybody really
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yeah I think the only thing I’d add to the awareness thing is just understanding our patterns like where
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that pattern starts we talk about in Seven Pillars of Freedom The Matrix of addiction so what does that pattern look like and that kind of once I start this
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first step I don’t even have to think about it I’m already at relapse and so trying to identify that definitely
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triggers but then also I think part of it is identifying what replac behaviors we’re putting in place of those unwanted
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behaviors what am I doing instead um and we used to talk about this uh in our events I think of this video uh maybe we
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can put it in the show notes of this guy trying to teach himself how to ride a bike the wrong way when he turns to the
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left the bike goes right and vice versa and how it took him a really long time to relearn that um and that idea that um
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in actually is in the video he tries to ride a regular bicycle after learning this other way and it takes him a while
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he cannot do it but then once he figures it out it’s it’s like you watch his brain just click all the way back in and
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so one of the things is that our brain is actually not able to forget habits uh it’s actually scientific it’s the way it
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works you have to put something else in place in order to stop that habit so I think that’s another piece too yeah
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those replacement behaviors it’s interesting is we were talking about it yesterday John and I you know when you
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go through group you do certain things over and over and over I have to do my faster scale I have to do my check-in
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you do it 52 weeks almost if it long and you’re like why do I have to do this
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silly exercise every single week but then what happens after you leave group you begin to immediately go I think I’m
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speeding up and it’s because you’ve ingrained it into your process yeah over 52 weeks yeah what I was thinking about
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is one of the additional tools we have in some of our workbooks that we call the Matrix of addiction and it’s where
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we have uh people really think through just what you were saying Trevor what is their pattern and it’s not only the
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actions but what I think is so valuable the excuses that accompany it and beginning to recognize when I go into
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that old unhealthy Behavior it’s not an isolated incident you I remembered when I started recovery that that was my fear
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of relapse because I thought it looked like an inverted EKG that that I would just be going along then Boop there’d be
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a relapse it like a heart be like but down you know down into relapse then I’d be right back up and go along and Boop down into relapse and then I saw that oh
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it’s it’s never been that there’s always a pattern of whether it’s procrastination or you you know
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excessive use of social media or just scrolling online and wasting time um avoiding maybe a hard conversation and I
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was taking these steps down that was step one or or or the beginning of
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recognizing but then it’s associating the excuse and so like let’s say I’m wasting time online reading sports
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articles which in and of itself it’s not bad to read about sports there was nothing particularly triggering or provocative about those articles but for
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me if I was wasting time the excuse was oh I just need this for now or I just
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don’t feel like hard work and what helped me is that when I would hear myself making those statements in my own
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thinking that began to be like a trigger warning or a red flag alert of hey this is your pattern not only the behavior
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you’re doing but but what you’re starting to tell yourself of I just need this for now I can control it I won’t go
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too far and connecting the specific action and excuse just I think exposed a
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whole system that had maybe been there a lot longer and deeper than I realized but also gave me some checkpoints much
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earlier on the journey to say I need to reach out to someone I need to change my circumstance I need to implement a
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guardrail here and and that became then a much more effective plan than just waiting until you know all those wheels
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are turning towards the old pattern or behavior yeah so we’re talking around a couple of these different tools um
Tools For Preventing Relapse
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already so let’s just be really specific what are tools we suggest men and women use when preventing relapse when working
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toward that and then how do we best use those tool tools yeah I mean immediately the faster
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skill is one of the ones that we really drill into the guys and then as you go through the group three circles to help
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identify uh your guard rails which is one of the things Nick was talking about is those areas where I’m edging towards
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something and I think one of the things I heard you say in a previous podcast that I thought was so interesting Nick
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is being in that guard rail is not necessarily a relapse but if you stay
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there long long enough you will end up in relapse and so uh you know identifying what those guardrails are
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and becoming aware of them and then um recognizing am I because some of those
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those things that they’re on the edge there could be healthy behaviors but they can also be used as a form of uh
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numbing uh when I was in counseling my counselor forbid me from reading books for a while because he said that’s part
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of your way of escaping is you read books under the guise of self-help looking for you know something you think
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is missing and so he said you can only read the books I give you and so there’s a lot of um what you might call uh White
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addictive behavior that um can look good and it can be good but uh it can also be
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a form of medicating I think becoming aware of that and recognizing that I am reading these sport Pages or looking at
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videos or numbing out and B watching TV uh because I’m trying to escape how I
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feel yeah yeah I I think having that uh relapse prevention Plan Three circles tool is clear where you’ve identified
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what a relapse is you’ve identified your guard RS you’ve identified your Healthy behaviors and another tool that that
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we’ve seen be crucial is the recovery action plan or I think in some places too it’s been called a
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recovery uh relapse prevention plan no there’s a there’s like a used to be called Safety plan saf plan I feel like
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in the unraveled we maybe have another name for it but any it’s the same concept is it’s defining ahead of time
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what are the the steps I’m going to take proactively when I’m recovering from a relapse and it includes some natural and
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logical consequences that I have agreed to enter into it as a way of retraining my brain and teaching myself that this
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matters and I don’t want to go here and it’s hurtful to other people and so I want to kind of feel the hurt to me in
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ways that actually cause me to grow because my brain doesn’t like to experience pain and a lot of times when
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we’re stuck in an addictive pattern the only real pain we’ve experienced is our own guilt and shame and maybe that fear
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of people finding out but then after a few days maybe that goes away and we forget all those commitments we’ve made
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but when we actually have to you know provide for our spouse to go on a day Retreat for some health and Recovery
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when we have to sleep on the couch for a month because our spouse doesn’t feel safe with us in the bedroom when we have
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to you know donate all of what we would normally spend on our Hobbies or something for fun when we have to donate
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that to a nonprofit that fights sex trafficking those are things that that now we feel in a a different way and the
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Brain begins to connect the dots that when we’re tempted to relapse or go to that behavior the brain goes whoa this
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isn’t this isn’t worth it because I already know I’ve said I will tell my group and my spouse and my pastor within
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24 hours I’ve agreed I’ll take these steps I and and it’s just like well suddenly the the reasons of well it’s
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not not that big of a deal it’s like no it is it is a big deal and knowing it’s there it’s kind of the Murphy’s Law like
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if you have it you won’t need it but if you don’t have it you’ll wish you did because then there’s just not kind of
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the parameters in place to help you so I think that and honestly a relapse prevention tool that we don’t think of
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that way often enough is those regular phone calls to others that are on the recovery Journey with us because we get
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too stuck in the habit and I I mean I know I fall into this where we just think I’m doing fine I don’t need to make phone calls I don’t I don’t really
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want to spend time on this but it’s those regular phone calls when we’re doing well that gets us in the pattern
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enough that when we do start to slip towards something unhealthy we’re already in the pattern of phone calls so
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we’re like I need to call and talk to someone about this because what I have found is when we’re not regularly making phone calls and we think well when I
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really need someone I’ll reach out the truth is once we get there we don’t we we come up with other reasons that
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they’ll be busy or I don’t want to bother them or I don’t really need them and we don’t make the calls when we really do need it and so that tool of
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like make your regular Group phone calls weeken and week out especially when you don’t need them because that’s going to
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set you up to actually make them when you do I think just another kind of peripheral one too is just accountability software having that’s
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another good thing to have in your toolkit and even as I say that just to be clear that like all the the tools
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we’re talking about it’s not just using just one it’s using them together in concert that actually does help and the
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reason why I say that is because oftentimes even before I started recovery I thought accountability software was the recovery plan you know
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and it’s not so these need to be used in conjunction with each other yeah yeah just a side note there one of the guys
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in my group part of his recovery re action plan was that he had to go shoe shopping with his wife for two hours
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every time he had a failure so he was really motivated to not do that you know what’s funny is
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that sounds amazing to me I’d love to go he found that disturbing yeah he’s like oh my God it’s the worst thing ever yeah
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oh my gosh well hey I’d say whatever it takes to communicate to your heart and your brain we don’t want to go there
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again yeah um you know as we’ve been discussing in this series Mike breaking out of isolation uh being honest in
How Others Help Us Prevent Relapse
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community are really important uh in this journey and those are things that we can’t do alone we need others and so
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how do others play a role in our plan to prevent relapse you know uh they play a
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huge role and I wanted to share this story when I first got in group uh we were going through the book The Cure and
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it’s a parable and one of the big ahas I got out of that book is when we have
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hidden sin in our life we can’t receive love because we know that the love that’s being offered is uninformed and
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so um it was in that group for the first time that I had actually exposed my deepest darkest fears and these guys
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still loved me and it changed my whole life that one thing changed my whole life you know the Bible says that we we
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uh uh can love because we receive love from him first the challeng is is when we can’t receive it though it doesn’t
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flow through us so it was after that healing that came from these guys loving me even though they knew all about me
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that I began to have a heart for wanting to help other guys yeah and it changed my whole life that was a honestly in my
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journey that was probably one of the most pivotal moments is recognizing that
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aha that I have exposed this hidden uh sin
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and people still chose to love me and released the shame and allowed me to love others and everyone who listening
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to the show is I’m guaranteed has heard me talk about my first time really sharing my full story and it was it was
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absolutely healing where was something that was so lacking which was you know fear of rejection or not being accepted
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I received it in that moment in group when I shared my entire story even the dark you know pockets of it and that was
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that was huge and so it and and we’ve said this a lot you know at pure desire not just on the show but that idea that
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God’s vertical love is expressed horizontally through relationships with his people and so that’s such an important piece but also like in group
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too there are times where you know Nick you’ve talked about this a lot blind spots like there there because we can’t
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see them and so other people are like hey I don’t know if you’ve noticed this but you keep saying this and that’s not
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actually what happened or I don’t know if you realize that when you do this specific behavior it actually takes you to the next Behavior which is the start
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of your you know of your whole pattern you know and then you go into relapse and so I think it’s important to have people there for that too um and then
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it’s still one of my favorite parts of group is seeing Revelation come from
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other people sharing their story in group amen they say something and it’s like oh crap I had thought of it that
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way or you know what I have the same experience I didn’t realize you know and it’s that idea of other people are
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helping you self-actualize what has happened in your life and your own patterns and your own trauma and so I
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feel like you can’t do that without other people being in that group setting even to this day um you know I think I’m
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12 years out from the initial start of this journey 11 or 12 I love being in
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group because uh hearing these guys come in in their pain and begin to start this
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journey reminds me of where I was and it’s I need that because it’s easy to
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over time like Nick was talking about you begin to let your guard down and you maybe coast and my my mentor used to say
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there’s only one way to Coast it’s downhill yeah I think the power of other people too and Community is that it’s
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it’s just really easy if we’re trying to do it by ourself uh to change the rules
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when it’s convenient for us you know if I haven’t really communicated to others my my boundaries and guardrails or my
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commitments maybe 95% of the time I’m fine holding those on my own but when I’m in that place where my thinking is a
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little distorted I’ve had a rough day I’m looking for something to feel better those self-imposed rules go out the
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window real fast and to be like well you know I’ll pick up fresh next time versus if I know hey at group I’ve committed to
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telling the truth and I’m going to be there in three days and I will have to tell them about this because I’m I’m
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saying I’m going to be accountable to you it it just changes the equation or if I’ve told you know someone I’m making
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these regular calls to them to be accountable accountability takes it out of something that we’re just controlling
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ourselves I’ve I’ve talked about it as giving the keys of our recovery to someone else you know we still have to
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be responsible for our actions and behaviors and moving forward but in terms of the key where where we can change a rule or a guard rail or you
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know how we use the internet or the places we go that maybe have been part of our old story when we just say I I
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don’t make that choice I don’t trust trust myself to make that choice because I’ve proven that I’m not trustworthy on
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my own and that’s not an admission like a failure or weakness that’s an admission of my need for others and the
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truth is God made us with a need for others God made us uh you know Galatians 62 that we’re we’re called to Bear one
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another’s burdens to help each other carry that load and not think I can just do it by myself and so when we’ve made
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commitments to others and we’ve shown them we’ve invited them into it it just it changes the equation from well it’s
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it’s me and my rules I change when I want to to being no I’ve I’ve got a community of people that know what I’m
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working towards and that I’m going to report to and now I’m just more easily I wouldn’t say easily I’m I’m I have a
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greater likelihood that I will stick to that plan when I really don’t feel like it uh for whatever reason this came to
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mind just years ago I felt like the lord gave me the phrase specifically to Galatians 6 share to bear I have to
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First share in order for other people to bear like that burden with me and I that’s just always been it’s funny
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I can think of three friends who make fun of me and always quote those three words to me but it is really really important join them well and you can
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lift so much more when you’re with other people you know it’s just it’s amazing you know as you were talking nick uh it
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reminded me of when before I ever really got in group but I knew I had a problem uh I was like just like you said I need
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accountability software that’s going to solve this problem so I got Net Nanny I don’t even know if they’re still around
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that just sounds like an old tech company I put Nanny on my computer and
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uh you know you’re like okay I’ve got it nailed down and a week later you’re like nobody’s home I’m circling on the laptop
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I’m just GNA put the password in right turn it off I’ll look at porn and then so you do that a couple times and you’re
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like I can’t trust myself just like you said so what I did was I created like a 25 random digit password my gosh and I
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put it in and then I burned the piece of paper it kept the net NY on there but
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that’s white that’s white knuckling right there that’s a definition I the thing was I did not want to tell anybody this that was my desperate attempt to
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try and uh stop my behavior by myself right yeah okay so a big piece of
Replacement Behaviors
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preventing relapse and we’ve already talked a little bit about this is finding replacement behaviors for our addictive ones so what are good
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replacement behaviors and how do we prioritize those as we go through our recovery Journey you know I’m thinking
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the Outer Circle and the three circles all your those healthy behaviors and it’s so interesting in group when guys do this exercise they can they can fill
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the center out really quick they can kind of fill out the center one but then they get that OU of outer ring and it’s like I don’t know what to put in you
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yeah go to church read my Bible right yeah dvo life you know so I mean the way I’d prioritize those things initially
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are those basic health needs your sleep diet uh and then your family family time
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pickle ball exercise right by the way Heidi had her first tournament today she lost all four games oh no I knew pickle
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ball was coming in here some way if you weren’t going to bring it up I had to throw it in there I know you and like
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what is a couple other guys from the office you and the whole nation are like becoming pickle all craze and I’m I feel
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like I’m the only one not I don’t think it’s becoming I think it is like the craz is there anyways anyway so you know
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I would start digress those basic uh Health behaviors your family your your connection with your family and your
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kids you know one of the things I thought about as I when I think about that Outer Circle and um one of the
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books I read as I was going through this journey early on before I was remarried was the meaning of marriage by Tim
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Keller and what I took out of that was this woman and these children that God
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gives you are a gift from him there it’s his daughter and those children are his
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children and the way you treat them and serve them is an act of worship so I
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I’ve tried to incorporate that in my attitude because I I’m a pretty selfish guy right we’ve been re reaping selfish
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behavior all our lives so I try to incorporate incorporate that in there and then of course beyond that you know there’s hobbies and we all have have
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different Hobbies you know some people run I even know a guy who makes candles you know all kinds of crazy he’s talking
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about you and me by the way I just want to clarify I am not the candle guy hey I am happy I make my own
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candles you know one of the things I try to encourage people in groups to think about is that coping in and of itself is
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not bad in fact there are ways in which coping is a normal human reaction to things that I’m not sure how to carry in
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the moment what to do about and and for all of us we’re going to hit points in life where we’re just like I’m
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overwhelmed and I’m not sure where to go and sometimes in those moments for legitimate reasons we don’t feel
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especially if we’re maybe not a people person or as extroverted or maybe we’ve been extroverted all day and we’re just
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kind of drained and if all of our recovery plans involve you know other people which you know I want to say
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other people are always helpful but I think sooner or later we might hit points where we’re just like I I feel
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like coping and so I’ve said identify what are things you can cope with that don’t lead to your old unhealthy
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Behavior I’ll give an example you know for me it was times I’ve had different periods in my life where I struggle with
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falling asleep and so if I’m up alone late at night in the house that’s obviously could be a Temptation Zone but
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I had to Define well what are something I can do that doesn’t require me to maybe get a hold of another person at
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midnight doesn’t require me to leave my house to try to pursue a hobby so I have things like you know there’s DVDs that
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we own that are safe non-sexually triggering and when I’m just in that place like for whatever reason I can’t
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sleep I can throw on the Lord of the Rings or you know a Jason Bourne movie or something you know
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maybe for others that’s not your thing or your kind of movie but something that does allow me just to unwind not have to
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engage but I also know I’m not triggered to then go do the next thing and so for
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you it might be cranking up the jazz music with a glass of wine in your hand for someone else it might be taking a
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hot shower or a bath for someone else it might be just getting to take a nap I mean you’ve got to have not only yeah
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you’ve got to have not only those coping behaviors that are proactive you know like getting exercise and calling a group member and and I think when we’re
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on our game and we’re nailing it those things are so helpful but you are going to hit those moments where it’s just
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like nothing is in nothing like proactive it all feels like too much work and and our brain kind of
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gravitates to easy simple and I think answering for yourself when I get in that mode here are actually some safe
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coping things that I enjoy but they’re not triggering for me and for every person that might look different but it’s like oh okay I’m going to do that
28:28
because in that moment of Temptation when you’ve got an alternative that you also enjoy you know we hear Rodney on
28:34
the podcast a lot really joke about dopamine but at a brain level it’s true partly your brain is seeking some dopamine to to get kind of a pikme up
28:42
and so if it can be something just like a good old movie or a song or or heaven forbid even eating that doughnut or
28:48
drinking that cup of coffee like if if that is keeping you from a much more destructive pattern i’ I’d rather you
28:54
drink the coffee or eat the dut than go back to your addic behavior and and I I think your spouses and friends would
29:00
agree like let’s find the ones that don’t cause long-term pain and damage to our relationships but that keep you in a
29:06
in a safe place I think there’s stuff too you can do to be proactive in the sense of scheduling like if you schedule
29:11
something it gets done and I think it’s important that we do put on our calendar I am going to go do this self-care
29:18
behavior on Wednesday at 6 pm and I mean obviously you want to have those things that maybe when you’re in a situation
29:24
where you don’t know what to do it’s to you need to have both but I think that scheduling it is also a really important
29:29
thing and I’ve run into situations where you have to have that conversation with your spouse or with your family to make
29:35
sure you’re not cutting you know you’re not isolating or pulling away but if you can be proactive and schedule those things too because I I think especially
29:42
when you’re on the road to recovery there’s something I know for me that feels selfish about self-care or asking
29:48
for it um and then also it’s you know we’ve had these patterns of not prioritizing us and our health and what
29:54
we need and so it’s just not a muscle we’ve developed and I think schedule it will help us lean into that more you
29:59
know you reminded me Nick as you were talking um when I was going through counseling my counselor one day said I
30:06
want to I want to give you a scenario let’s say you walk into Starbucks for your morning coffee and you’re in line
30:12
and you notice that the girl in front of you has a body type that’s ringing your bell and she smells really good and you
30:18
start to fantasize about what does she look like and oh you know she’s she’d be always sexual you just start going there
30:25
and he said what do you do what what are you going to do he said you feel the chemical flesh you guys know what I’m talking about where it’s like I feel
30:31
that flush I’m like getting uh you know aroused he’s like what do you do what would you normally do in your old
30:37
Behavior I said well I’d probably just imagine what she was like and probably take that home sometime later and masturbate he wases well okay what what
30:44
other things could you do to flush those chemicals he say because if you can sit with that long enough and flush the
30:49
chemicals your brain will come back and uh so we we talked through a couple
30:54
things but one of the exercis that that he gave me me that was so helpful he goes when you feel that way what I want
31:00
you to do is I want you to begin to notice like the crack in the sidewalk or
31:06
the picture of or the color of that flower or the smell of the air and he goes do you know what I’m doing and I
31:12
said well I think you’re you’re trying to make me be present and he said that’s exactly what I I’m doing he goes you
31:19
can’t be in a fantasy world and present at the same time so he said I’m trying to bring you back to being present and
31:25
that little trick has helped me so many times uh and particularly for me it it
31:30
uh probably the strongest one is smell like if I walk outside and I breathe in and smell the air our air has a smell it
31:36
smells clean and crisp and delicious you know and it has really helped me because uh you know his his whole thing was you
31:43
can live in the fantasy of the past or you can live in the fantasy of the future but you can’t be present with
31:48
either one and I like that it has been so helpful for me you’ve got some zingers today dude you’ve been hanging
31:54
out with some cool people you know that that’s one of the things I’ve I’ve practiced and said to to people in conferences of using imagination for our
32:02
good because I I think the enemy or our sinful nature whatever you want to think of that as uses our imagination against
32:08
us but we want to remember imagination is a gift from God it’s god-given that we can imagine anything and so
32:14
unfortunately we’ve just been imagining things that take us towards the fantasy and I’ve said to to men in particular
32:19
like just imagine the full like go further with don’t stop it like well we hooked up and it was this amazing
32:25
experience like well then imagine you have to go tell your kids that you’re moving out of the house to go be with
32:30
this other woman and imagine the look on their faces and imagine that this woman is is vindictive and every night when
32:36
you come home from work she’s just going to berate you for things you don’t do she’s going to make you feel terrible she’s going to cheat on you she’s an
32:42
alcoholic she and and it’s like you know there’s a part of it’s like well I don’t know if that’s true it’s like well yeah
32:47
you don’t know if the other stuff that you’ve been thinking about is true either it’s just your brain has learned to gravitate to that good stuff like
32:53
just start imagining a different story to the point where your brain’s like H I don’t want it I don’t want that like I
32:59
guess what I guess what I have is okay I think maybe I’ll stick with that and not you know so use your imagination in ways
33:05
that do Propel you to what you want and what God has already given you and towards gratitude rather than letting
33:12
imagination only be a tool of the enemy so I I think there are but I also agree be being grounded in reality and if if
33:18
you do have imagination like well just use it in ways that that support you and not work against you that’s good that
33:25
was one of the other tricks that I can’t remember if I got this from Greg my counselor or not but when I see a
33:30
beautiful girl he goes don’t deny that she’s beautiful she is beautiful but she’s not the one God gave you yeah
33:36
right and then Express gratitude for the wife that you have and the good qualities that she attractive people are never going away they’re not going
33:43
there’s never going to be a what 8 billion people you’re going see someone that you find attractive sooner or later
33:49
yes yes you know Mike I think this is a crucial question for a lot of our listeners where recovery in that initial
Preventing Relapse As A Way Of Life
33:56
Zone you know we’re we’re focused we’re you know we’re maybe overcoming some pain of exposure being caught found out
34:03
um we’ve hit rock bottom whatever that has meant in our story and there can be tremendous growth in momentum and and
34:09
then we do sooner or later everyone arrives at a place it’s like man I’ve I’ve really changed and and there can be
34:16
in that kind of season a tendency for our focus on recovery to start to wne because maybe the reasons that drove us
34:22
into it kicking the behavior healing a relationship we feel like are happening and so we start to lose focus and we
34:29
unfortunately hear that a lot of people that you know are in that two to five years of recovery that start to have a
34:34
pattern of some relapses coming back in so what can we do to avoid that
34:39
happening if we have experienced a season of health and freedom and are now maybe in that in between place of not
34:46
wanting to slip backwards yeah let me pref preface this
34:51
uh with kind of a backstory here in the way I think when I was going through my
34:56
addiction and I still think this way is I read the verse in Proverbs that says
35:02
Those Who worship Idol or those who make Idols become like them and I read that and I went what Idol am I making and it
35:11
it came to me that I’m making an idol of lust and in doing so I’ve become
35:17
increasingly lustful and increasingly selfish you know in the New Testament says God will not be mocked whatever a
35:24
man SWS that will he also reap and so I began to think okay if I’m sewing seeds
35:29
of lust and selfishness how do I reverse that and I began to think about I have
35:36
to find ways to give back and so the way I look at this is I go I can lead a group I can start serving my wife and my
35:43
children in an intentional way I can lead a group which is I think I I
35:48
referenced that before is part of the reason I Love Leading a group is because it keeps the woundedness fresh because I
35:56
see the people are going through and it makes me go don’t ever go back there you don’t
36:01
want to go back look at what you have you don’t want to lose that you can serve in your church I encourage you guys to serve in their Church in some
36:07
way or find a way to invest in other people um so that it’s not about you because I think that the behaviors those
36:14
guardrail behaviors that we are are engaging in are increasingly selfish and
36:20
ultimately like you said they will lead us back to relapse and so if we can uh focus on others and ways to give back
36:28
and invest in other people I think that’s probably the primary way at least in my own life that I’ve tried to keep
36:34
the passion um just personally i’ I literally thought the same thing because
36:39
I think that and I’ve experienced this over the last few years where it it’s becomes far less about what I do or what
36:46
I used to do and now my motivation has changed to who am I becoming like and what you’re talking about too is Legacy
36:53
what am I passing on um and so like focusing on not not only who I’m becoming but the ministry that I now
36:59
have with the story that I have with the work that I’ve done and I think that that’s something I’ve been exploring over the last couple of years really has
37:05
just been this idea that um you create a lot of momentum at the beginning because there’s crisis and there’s pain you know
37:12
that’s like I just disclosed you know what’s been going on and there’s this hyper motivation I could lose my
37:17
marriage or my job or my family if I don’t do it and then when crisis dies down it’s just kind of like cool like
37:24
I’m just kind of chilling you know and that’s where that coasting can happen and so I think that in that we have to make sure our motivation changes too
37:30
it’s not just how do I heal all this Brokenness that I’ve you know I’m sewing
37:35
with my decisions and now think about who am I becoming what kind of trajectory am i setting what kind of
37:42
father spouse you know friend co-worker do I want to be and so I I love that because it’s Shifting the perspective
37:48
not just what I’m doing but I’m thinking about um what kind of Legacy I’m now leaving behind me the other thing you
37:55
know um my mentor shout out to Nathan um had always said you don’t wait to
38:02
fortify the walls until the enemy is attacking you know you fortify or build you prepare for the enemy when you’re
38:08
strong and so uh knowing that I’m human um and you know Temptation never goes
38:14
away like you said beautiful people are all around us they’re going to be there forever and temptation is always there
38:20
uh we are human we’re broken um and so you just have to go I’m capable I’m one
38:25
decision away from really screwing up and relapsing and then I have to tell my wife and all
38:31
the pain and suffering that comes along with that and so you just go I have to plan for failure when I’m strong plan to
38:38
defend against it when I’m strong well we’ve talked about the tool several times already but I think that
38:43
three circles tool is a lifetime tool and we might want to start calling it something different like because relapse
38:50
prevention it’s like well I don’t I’m not that worried about relapse because I’ve been doing so well okay well that may be a little overconfidence but if if
38:56
you’d like you know call it your Healthy Living plan call it your you know lifetime growth plan that shows here’s
39:02
the activities that bring me a sense of peace and fulfillment and purpose here’s the activities I have to avoid because
39:08
for me they represent old unhealthy patterns and here are my ongoing lifelong commitments to things I’ve
39:14
covenanted covenanted to God myself and others that I don’t want to do I’m not going back there and I’ve really
39:21
encouraged people that should be a monthly at least thing of a document you’re review you know just for your
39:27
personal health like hey a checkpoint how am I doing what steps am I taking how am I staying active and fresh and if you realize there’s areas you’ve started
39:33
to slip you know being able to take those to other people and have conversations because when that plan is
39:38
in front of you and it’s something you’re building around and it includes you know those Faith elements of how are you growing in Christ and inviting the
39:45
power of God into your life and leaning on the Holy Spirit and you know being a person of prayer and in the word of God
39:50
like when those like you say Trevor those become more about who am I becoming what am I leaning into and I do
39:56
keep in mind the things that I have to be cautious with those two together you know keep me on that that road towards
40:02
growth and Recovery you know um I I just heard recently uh boy I wish I could
40:08
remember where because I’d love to give credit where credits due but uh someone said it doesn’t matter how far down the
40:13
road I go the ditch is always the same distance away Nate Lin Nate Lin say was that a Nate Lin you know because we can
40:20
be so far in recovery but that ditch just still a couple decisions even
40:25
though we’re health and another way I’ve thought about it cuz sometimes um I can feel this performance orientation I know
40:31
shocker of like well I’ve I’ve grown so much why do I still need guardrails right it feels like I’m a kid like that
40:37
needs bumpers on my bowling alley and I like I should be able to just bowl without that and and I I’ve thought
40:43
about that the higher you get up on a mountain guard rils become more important not less because the distance
40:48
of the Fall is a lot further and the pain it causes is much deeper and so it may not be you know when I’m driving up
40:55
over the Mount Hood area and and over a mountain pass it’s not that I’m terrified I’m going to run off the road
41:01
but those are the places I’m really glad there are guardrails I’m really glad at those Heights that there’s something to
41:07
keep me safe even though Lord willing I will never need them um so rather than in our growth starting to regret why do
41:13
I need guard RS it just becomes a byproduct of my wisdom that I just don’t want to assume I’m going to be safe
41:18
because I’m getting higher up in responsibilities in life and people that look up to me and and so just being okay
41:24
with like this is my way of life and it will be forever I’m not going to ever outgrow this need for a growth plan and
41:31
guard rails um and that’s not a sign of immaturity or weakness is just humility and and and understanding I’m human and
41:37
I’m not perfect and so if we see that I think we can accept some of those tools as helpful U guides for the rest of our
41:45
life yeah it’s so good that is really good I don’t know if you guys have thought of it this way before but the three circles tool could almost be like
41:51
a rule of life you know that monastic practice of like putting structure around this is the way I will live my
41:57
life that really you could look at it that way that it is something absolutely that’s a good word one of the things I would love to see in uh pillar seven of
42:06
uh Seven Pillars going forward is a more of a legacy Focus you know identifying
42:11
who I am um almost like a creating a mission statement for your life saying these are the values identifying the
42:17
values that are important to me how I’m going to live these out how I’m going to incorporate them into the decisions that I make um going forward or if F that we
42:24
had like a follow-up work to the Seven Pillars where men could like go into some of those
42:30
themes uh compassionate Warrior yeah hey that’s a great title the the compassionate
42:36
Warrior does unpack more of those themes so beautiful highly recommend that for men that have done $7 have to pay me for
42:42
that no that was a great yep that’s right uh you are now in the marketing
42:47
team Mike congratulations um okay so it may be obviously a no-brainer and even just because of our conversation um why
Why We Should Create A Plan To Prevent Relapse
42:54
it’s important but let’s just silver line it right now like why is it important to put a plan in place to
42:59
prevent relapse on the recovery journey I mean I think we touched on it before we are human no M no one’s perfect you
43:05
you know temptation’s going to come it’s not going away you’re going to be hungry angry lonely tired and the devil’s going
43:12
to hit you and you’re G to have a choice to make are you gon to make those phone calls are you what are you g to do to um
43:19
run away or are you just going to give in and so I think it’s just you know I was thinking of this I’m like um
43:26
I’m trying to be a pastor here right it’s like do it um aware prepare beware
43:33
right so say them again repeat them aware prepare beware so you you become
43:38
aware you prepare knowing that you are weak and then you’re wary looking for the dangers you’re Vigilant because they
43:45
are around you all the time yeah I think it’s kind of the idea of why would a you know experienced mountainer Backpacker
43:51
have a safety first aid kit in their backpack it’s not that they PL plan to get hurt and plan to do something
43:58
foolish but they also know that there’s dangers out there there’s things they’re going to run into and there that thought
44:03
of it’s better to be prepared than not at all you know we use it on one of our tools where we say those who fail to
44:09
plan plan to fail no those who yeah those who fail to plan plan to fail yeah
44:14
I’m saying I all the words are too close too close of a quote for me um but yeah just it’s like if if we think we’re
44:21
never going to need it we’re we’re not being the problem isn’t just not having it it’s not being aware that there are
44:27
dangers lurking in this world you know there first Peter 5 that you’re enemy the devil you know a real enemy he says
44:35
is prowling around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour yeah and and if we believe what the Bible says
44:41
like we have to believe there’s an enemy that would like to crush our souls and devour them and who who’s that going to
44:47
happen to well I’ll tell you it’s someone who’s not prepared not being honest not in community not aware of
44:52
their weaknesses and staying humble to to to others so it just there’s wisdom
44:58
in having a plan and and Lord willing some of those things we won’t need because we do continue to mature and
45:04
grow and the things that we find appealing will change our appetites start to change and become more
45:09
glorifying to God and honoring of him but but we still are human beings and we have to have an awareness that there are
45:15
dangers in this world and the more prepared I am the less likely that it’s going to be something that trips me up
45:21
and causes you know a lot of damage nobody likes Insurance till you need it that’s true uh just a a thing I’d add I
45:29
guess is just that on a biological level your brain never forgets that pathway
45:34
like it’s it may have been a super highway and now looks like a highway from The Walking Dead but it’s still a
45:40
highway and if you start going down that path it’s your brain’s gonna be like oh
45:46
yeah I remember this and it’s going to want to reinforce
45:51
it and so I think that we just even at a biological level being aware that we need to be vigilant uh man I experien
45:58
that even now you’re you know doing something on the news site and 40 hotus
46:03
nfo wives pops up on their head and you’re like I I really would like to click that you know totally yeah yeah
46:11
it’s yeah and again it is true but why but like knowing that something as
46:16
simple as that is an attack is coming from the enemy wants to trip us up and so dead in yeah it’s like eating the
46:22
whole chocolate cake Mike you’ve had so I’m telling you man so many zingers today dude I I’m all
Conclusion
46:29
for it I think the guy maybe needs to go have dinner too Donuts cake I have been
46:34
dieting that’s fair no uh but yeah thank you for wrapping us up on uh this last
46:40
episode of the series I think this has been awesome and it’s been great to have you back with us so thanks so